Conversation With a 'Nationalist'

After writing my piece about the Independence Day marches in Warsaw I was contacted by someone who claimed to have attended the unofficial nationalist march. He wanted to correct a few things that I wrote, and I offered that it was better we meet in person to discuss about it. He agreed to meet, and I was looking forward to hearing what he had to say. We met at Antykwariat Bar on Żurawia Street in Warsaw. He was a short pudgy bald man with stubbles on his face, but with a contented disposition and a toothy smile. He did not drink because he was a member of the Polish scout organization, so I decided not to drink as well. After some friendly greetings near the entrance of the cozy side-street tavern, we sat down and the conversation went like this. [He asked me not to share his real name, so I have renamed him Paweł]

Paweł: I have to warn that I’m rather right-winged.

James: I’m very interested to talk to you, because I don’t meet very many people that are right-winged, because usually it’s difficult to meet people that think differently from yourself.

Paweł: Yes. Ok so feel free to ask anything you want.

James: So why did you decide to go [to the Independence March] in the first place 4 years ago?

Paweł: Well I heard about it, and I said, "it’s our Independence Day and I have to choose one [of the marches] to go to," and, how should I say it, here I knew there were my friends.

James: So your friends brought you there the first time?

Paweł: Yes, I went with them.

James: Are you in any specific movement?

Paweł: No, during the Independence Day march there are a lot of, for example, soccer supporters, but not only them, but different groups, and there are also many families who go to the march.

James: You’re a Legia supporter right?

Paweł: Yes, since 1997

James: I saw a lot of green at the march, does this have anything to do with the Legia team, because it’s their color

Paweł: No, it’s a National Radical Group [ONR], that is the straight translation. It’s a right winged movement created before the Second World War, and because of them we have some problems. Before the Second World War the ONR organized the ghetto Ławkowe. Jews and Poles were separated from each other in class. Jews were sitting on one side and Poles on the other. They also organized attacks on Jew’s shops, you know, breaking their window, and so on and so on. At the moment, if you hear that ONR organize anything, you think that it’s the same name as before, and so it will be against Jews, and than you would believe that it’s nationalist [like Nazism, and not like Paweł's nationalism]. That’s why even if we try not to be connected with those years, sorry, it’s impossible.

James: So if you’re not associated with them, why are you going to the march?

Paweł: To celebrate our Independence Day.

James: Can you tell me what you are feeling during this celebration?

Paweł: I’m proud that I’m from Poland. I’m proud that our history was not as easy as it could be. We were sometimes beaten up, but we never gave up. Even if you compare France in the Second World War, with more armed divisions than us, they were defeated during 45 days; Poland was defeated in 40 days, but not all of Poland. You know Warsaw was defeated and Warsaw surrendered, Poznan was defeated and surrendered, but not all of Poland. The Polish National Army, called AK, was the biggest army fighting against Germany. Poland is the only country that didn’t help the Wehrmacht. You can easily find the Slovakian Wehrmacht army, France, and so on, but not the Polish Army.

James: So there was nobody that moved over to the German side?

Paweł: There were the volksdeutsches in our Silesia region, but it was very different, because it was an easy choice. They ask you, “Are you a volksdeutsche?” If you answer yes, then here are your papers, if you answer no, then [he moves his hand to his head like a gun and shoots]. That’s the reason why so many people from Silesia defected to Germany, and they were usually first to do this. Ok, even at the moment some people want to reach some autonomy in Silesia, but they don’t want to be connected with the Germans. It’s also nationalism, but Silesian nationalism, like the Basques.

James: Where were you at the March? I was on the south side at the front of the March.

Paweł: I began at the front of the march, but then, after it started, I was rather in the middle.

James: I heard that Rondo Dmowskiego is named after the creator of the ONR.

Paweł: You know the story of Ireland. You’ve got the IRA, the terrorist organization, and you’ve got Sinn Fein, the party. So [Roman] Dmowski created the party and it was the beating heart [like Sinn Fein]. Between the First and Second World War you had two people fighting each other, which were Dmowski and Piłsudsksi, and they had two different ideas for Poland, and they hated each other, because Piłsudski was socialist and Dmowski was nationalist. Typical left-winded versus right-winged.

James: So the Independence March usually supports…?

Paweł: Usually Dmowski. Between the two World Wars we don’t have an easy story. Don’t forget that at one time we were divided between three countries, which would be Russia, Austro-Hungary, and Germany.

James: Yes, the Independence after the First World War was your first Independence after 123 years. It’s difficult to come out of that and be stable.

Paweł: So [after the First World War] we were attacked by Russians at the Wisła. We've got a very bad geo-political situation. Between Russia and Germany. Always. But, we were the only ones to ever conquer both Crimea and Moscow. Of course Napoleon was also in Moscow, but this city was abandoned. We put our king in Moscow, and we were there for 4 years, at the beginning of the 17^th century.

James: 4 years is a fair amount of time. Longer than Napoleon.

Paweł: Yes, in 1612 they [the Russians] fought back. Why!?

James: I’ve heard the date 1612 before. It seems to be pretty significant.

Paweł: You can watch a film named 1612 about how they [the Russians] fought back for their kingdom.

James: What kind of famous people were at the march? What are some notable and important names?

Paweł: We’ve got guests from Jobbik, the Norwegian Nationalist Party, from  Italy’s Forza Nuova.

James: And they come here [Warsaw] to support the march?

Paweł: Yes.

James: Ok but what about Polish people, for example, the former president’s brother Jarosław Kaczyński? Was he at the March?

Paweł: No he wasn't there.

James: Are there any politicians that go?

Paweł: Yes, but from very small parties.

James: There were a lot of people at the march.

Paweł: Somebody estimated that there were about 100,000 people. It was between 30,000 to 100,000 people.

James: You said there were a lot of different groups of people. At the beginning I was standing at the front and I saw these green flags of ONR and this big truck that was playing music, and I thought it was mainly ONR supporters, but then I saw how many people there were, and that changed my mind. Did you talk to anybody at the march, for instance the people standing next to you? Did you talk to people that you didn’t know?

Paweł: No, no, no, we were marching. We were chanting some things, usually against communism, and also against our politicians, our Polish politicians. You know you probably will ask why we have more than one march.

James: I've heard that this Independence March was always causing trouble and that’s why they created the official Presidential March, in order to counteract the other group.

Paweł: Do you like theories of conspiracy?

James: Go for it. Shoot.

Paweł: Komorowski’s [the President] march was not so popular, less than 10,000 people. They want to show that there are two different marches. One where everybody is nice, everybody is kind to each other. And the second one, if you will check the internet, you will easily find a video where we’ve got a guy with a police uniform on, and he’s wearing a football supporter scarf. That’s one of the reasons why some people said it was police action against the Independence March, so they can show that Komorowski’s march is good and the Independence March is bad.

James: Ok, I don’t really understand.

Paweł: A reason why no one is going to the Komorowski’s March is because of what he’s done during his term. For example, try to imagine that Obama will reveal a monument connected to Japanese pilots that died during the attack on Pearl Harbor.

James: Yeah that certainly wouldn't go well.

Paweł: Komorowski was supporting this kind of monument connected with Russian soldiers who died during the Miracle at the Wisła.

James: Did it go up?

Paweł: I’m not so sure, but I know that they wanted to create this monument. Another thing. The first of May is May Day. The third of May is our Constitution Day. So we created a holiday in between these two days called Flag Day. And last year, for the celebration, Komorowski created an eagle out of chocolate, as you know the symbol of Poland is an eagle. Try to imagine an American eagle created from chocolate! And some people were raising flags with the names of sponsors. It’s Polish Flag Day, what the fuck are they doing!

James: Where were you on Polish Flag day?

Paweł: I don’t remember, but I was away from that celebration. It’s not that important of a day, the more important is the third day [Constitution Day]. The second of May was created, because you should hang a flag for the third of May, but it’s not needed for the first of May. But people would hang the flag and leave for the long weekend.

James: So people get a little lazy and they want to hang the flag before they leave and not have to worry about it.

Paweł: That’s true. However I’ve got a special task for you. Next November 11^th, look around Warsaw and try to count how many flags you can see.

James: It was amazing how many I saw at the march.

Paweł: No not during the march, but in the windows.

James: Can you give me an idea of what I’d be looking at? Is there a lot?

Paweł: One per block of flats, sometimes even less. You can see more in suburbia.

James: So do you hang up a flag for Independence Day?

Paweł: I always hang it.

James: Are you in a block of flats?

Paweł: Yes, on the 7^th floor. I've got a special hanger that I put out the window.

James: Ok well this is a lot to think about. Let me think. I kept on hearing these firecrackers that went off, and they really made my heart stop, because it would go off right next to me and I had no idea that that was going to happen.

Paweł: About pyro we have some strange laws. We can officially only use it on the New Year’s Eve. If you fire it up every day you can be sentenced for I don’t know how long. During News Year’s Eve we have a lot of people who get injured, but no one says it should be banned, because it’s tradition. But if you use it during the Independence March for example than they say, “Ban it! Kill him!”

James: But there was a lot of pyro at this march.

Paweł: Yes. This is one of the ways we celebrate. If you put it down next to another person, I know that it is a very bad idea. I fired some, a few times, well a lot of times I can say. This year I fired some during our supporters Pilgrimage to Częstochowa.

James: When does that happen?

Paweł: The supporter’s pilgrimage is on the first Saturday of January. For me it’s a safe thing [pyro]. It’s like you light it [a flare] it goes for one minute and that’s all. I heard that sometimes it might cause some injuries, but it’s even less than 1%. So for me it’s very safe and it looks quite fine.

James: Ok here’s a political question. What do you think about Donald Tusk being the president of the European Council?

Paweł: In my opinion Tusk sold Poland to reach this place. We've got no factories, we've got no ship-builders, and we've got no North Stream pipeline. Donald Tusk was on his knees to Angela [Merkel], on his knees to Putin, and for everybody else, and that’s why he achieved this place.

James: So you don’t think that he will support Polish interests?

Paweł: It depends on what Angela will say.

James: So Angela is pulling the strings.

Paweł: I’m afraid that’s true. But we will see. He’s got two and a half years at this positions, so we will see. I’ll tell you straight. I hope I’m wrong, but I’m afraid I’m not.

James: It’s a widespread fear with politics, because you never really know what you’re getting.

Paweł: I know what I will get when I buy some bombs. Then I will finally reach my target.

James: What will you do?

Paweł: I will organize a meeting with all politicians from left to right. I will close the door, and then bang. In my opinion, of course I’m right-winged, I’m supporting Kaczyński, but in my opinion I don’t think there is any politician that deserves to win. I think that all hands are dirty. 

James: Where do you work?

Paweł: I work as a subway technician; I maintain remote-control of everything, like all the lights and so forth, in the metro.

James: How long have you been doing that job?

Paweł: For more than seven years.

James: And do your coworkers believe the same things that you do?

Paweł: Hahaha, no, no, no. When we are talking about politicians or something like that, we sometimes have very big arguments. But you know, good arguing is not bad. We can somehow clear the atmosphere.

James: Well thank you very much for your perspective. It’s really nice to be able to hear a different point of view. I’ll ask one more question. Are you planning to go next year on the 11^th?

Paweł: Yes, of course. If it will not be banned. Every year we have some fights, and big minds say that it should be banned, it shouldn't be allowed, no more Independence Day March. Three years ago they said these things, two years ago, one year ago, this year, next year, another year. But still I’m going to be there.

Dedicated to Liao Yiwu for the inspiration to talk no matter what the differences are.